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Summary
In this episode of CareLab, hosts Emilia Bourland and Brandy Archie sit down with Lisa Kendall to discuss the importance of setting boundaries in caregiving. They explore what boundaries mean, how they can be flexible, and the potential risks of having boundaries that are too rigid or too soft. The conversation highlights practical strategies for caregivers to protect their well-being while providing effective care.
Key Takeaways
- Flexible Boundaries: Boundaries should be adaptable, opening and closing as needed to manage personal energy and well-being.
- Self-Care Importance: Setting boundaries is a form of self-care, allowing caregivers to say yes to their needs and no to excessive demands.
- Historical Influence: Personal history and family dynamics significantly influence how caregivers set and maintain boundaries.
- Communication Tools: Using tools like nonviolent communication can help caregivers articulate their needs and set appropriate boundaries.
- Risks of Poor Boundaries: Without proper boundaries, caregivers can face burnout, financial strain, and personal health issues.
Transcript
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Hey everyone, welcome to Care Lab.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Hi, it's Darla. I'm so glad to see you guys.
Lisa Kendall: Hey. Hey, how are ya?
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Doing great this morning. I'm so happy that you're here with us today, Lisa. Before we dive into anything, I wanna let folks know how great you are and how excited we are to have you here today. So real quick introduction. So Lisa's worked in the field of aging and elder care for over 40 years, which you cannot tell from her skin, which is flawless. I'll just go ahead and say.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Ha ha!
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Um, in a white, she's worked in a wide variety of settings and her special interest is in trauma informed care, grief, and living well with chronic illness. And she's really a champion of person centered care and trauma informed care. Um, Lisa is so awesome. You're going to see why, because she's going to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. Um, she is absolutely. magnificent at helping other people channel their innate wisdom to help make good decisions for themselves. So anyway Lisa welcome to the Care Lab. Thank you so much.
Lisa Kendall: Thank you. Thank you both for having me here today. It's really exciting for me to be here.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Um, so before we get started, I have a quick question for, for you both. So Fridays and, and Fridays are usually a recording days, but, um, so Fridays. They're either like, I think people fall into two categories. People either buckle down and like get worked on Fridays because maybe they don't have as many meetings scheduled or something like that, or they're like, whatever, I'm checking my email twice today. And other than that, the weekend has begun.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Hahaha
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Which which category do you fall into?
Lisa Kendall: It's a great question because my Fridays for months and months have been like work, work. And today, after we're done with our chat, I think we may actually go see a movie and just be like, so it's going to be a day off today.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Mm.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Oh
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Yes!
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: That sounds wonderful. That's good, that's so good. It's so important to find that time when you can.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Absolutely. I would say that Fridays are work, because I want Saturday to not be work. So I use my babysitting hours very wisely. So I try hard to get all the work done so that then I can not work so much when they're around.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Mm-hmm.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Yeah, Friday is also a work, work day for me, for me too. I had this notion once that I would take Fridays and I would work a little bit less so that I could kind of do like things around the house to get house in order for the weekend so I don't spend my whole weekend, you know, doing, yes, exactly, because that's not that much. That's not a weekend, just FYI.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: clean in the house.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Listen, I understand.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: But yeah, so that notion has gone out the window. Mostly I just work. But I always, here's the thing, my thing is on Friday afternoons, right when I'm supposed to go pick up my kids, that's when I have my best ideas. And I'm like, dang!
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Hehehehe
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Time to go.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Time to go. So then I end up like back on my computer at some point, like tapping away and working till late. But you know, such is life.
Lisa Kendall: You have to catch those ideas when you have them though, right?
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Uh, yes, because the creative juices are not always flowing and, or sometimes like you're just not always in the right motivational state to get things done. I wish that happened to me on Monday mornings, but you know.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Never seems to line up quite right, huh?
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: No, no, not really. Monday mornings I'm just trying to, you know, make it just like everybody else.
Lisa Kendall: Mm-mm.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: trying to make it.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Um, so should we jump right in here? We have a really kind of juicy topic to talk about with you today, Lisa, and that is boundaries in caregiving. It's something that is talked about a lot, but I think a lot of folks really struggle with. Maybe we could start by just a quick discussion of like, what is it? What are, what do boundaries even mean in this context?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, I've heard for years that caregivers need to set boundaries, set healthy boundaries, and nobody ever really explained exactly what a boundary is or how they work or how to set them. So I really started to dive deep into this, especially when I had my therapy practiced, because it's such a big issue, right? So a boundary isn't just a wall. And people think of a boundary as a fixed limit to something, something sort of permanent that keeps things out, right? I think that's often what we think of when we think of a boundary. But I heard this wonderful metaphor one time about boundaries that need to be flexible, that they open up and they close maybe multiple times a day. And that when they... open and close, that's both to keep some things out, but also then to keep something in. There's always something that if you say no to something, you're saying yes to something else, right? Excuse me. So boundaries need to be flexible. And the example I give for this is, say you wake up Monday morning. Right? And before you're really ready to see other people or jump right into work, maybe you're the kind of person who needs a cup of coffee. You just can't face the day without that coffee. So you may not even be aware that you set a boundary on your day or on that time. Right? You don't maybe even get dressed yet. Maybe you don't answer your phone for a while. Maybe you don't unlock your door. Those are all boundaries that allow you the space and time to sort of gather your energy, get your caffeine, pull yourself together. You're saying yes to that time to yourself, but you're saying no to the public. And then when you're ready, and for those who are listening, I'm sort of putting my arms up in front of me. I think of this as like a ballet move, right? So you're making a circle with your arms. And when you're ready, Lisa Kendall: open that circle up and you're ready. It's like welcome day, welcome people. You can come on in now. You may unlock your door, you may turn the ringer back on your phone, you've had your shower, you're dressed, so there's a different kind of boundary but now it's open. Later on in the day you might need to get some work done, you need to even take a nap, close your eyes for a few minutes. Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Kendall: close the drapes, if you're taking a nap, pull the blanket up over your shoulders. Whatever you need to do to get that, it's a form of self care, right? To set that boundary, to keep other folks out, keep other demands, questions, demands on your time, energy and whatever, so that you can rejuvenate. When you've had your nap, take a breath, open the circle back up, and off you go. And you may need to do that several times a day, just for yourself, as a way of keeping yourself healthy and well. So for caregivers, we need to be able to say, you know, this is what I need right now. I need to not answer my phone right now. I need to not be available. And I know when my caregiving journey with my mom, we had a code with family members and the code was, do not call before 10 a.m. Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Hahaha.
Lisa Kendall: You know, you could text or you could send an email or leave a message, but I just couldn't be up all night with her and then get up and answer the phone first thing in the morning. So you set those boundaries. Now, it's funny, I'm a big fan of metaphor, so let me throw another one at you. But sometimes your boundaries, if they're too rigid, can actually work against you.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Right.
Lisa Kendall: And so the metaphor is, sometimes boundaries can work like walls. So my husband and I have a lovely screened in porch. And this spring, we found that a bird had built a nest in the eaves of the porch, right? And we were like, oh, this is so sweet, right? There's this nest with these little baby birds. But it wasn't long before these baby birds started to fledge and learn to fly, and they were coming off of the nest and into our porch, which was a safe place for them. So if you think about our porch, it's got walls, it's got screens, it's got windows and a door, and the birds would fly off the nest, and they were sort of like boomeranging off the walls, right? And they couldn't get out. So you think about walls as being a boundary that actually isn't flexible enough, right? So we needed to open the door. open the windows, shoo the birds out, let them be free to go live their life. So, boundaries need to be flexible. Too rigid is a problem, too soft is a problem.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Absolutely.
Lisa Kendall: You have to learn to flex.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: So, like Goldilocks?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, just right. And just right for you. So it's different for everybody.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Yeah, you definitely have to know yourself. I love that you brought up coffee, because it's definitely me. My kids know, like, don't even bother asking me for anything until I've had that cup of coffee. But my son did an experiment once where he was like, good morning, mama. And I was like, hello, what do you need? And he was like, oh, it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to see if you were awake yet. It's like, if I don't have the coffee, I'm not.
Lisa Kendall: That's right.
Lisa Kendall: And those boundaries can be so subtle, right? And that's why I think a lot of people don't realize they have them, or they think of them as something really different. So when I do these trainings with caregivers, they go, oh, that's a boundary, right? And that's why it gets kind of complex to talk about. So yeah, so thanks for sharing that. That's awesome. That's a good example.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: So you're saying that boundaries are different for everybody, which I think is kind of a great point to kind of bring up, is how do people figure out what their boundaries should be and how do you figure that out?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah. So there's a lot of ways to get at that. And I think it really starts with paying attention to what your needs are, because boundaries are a way of getting your needs met and they're going to be different for everybody, right? So start with paying attention to what your needs are. And then also getting in touch with your personal history. Because the way that we learn boundaries is usually in our family of origin. What we learned is kids growing up, what did we see? How did our family handle boundaries? How were they flexible or not? If you were growing up in a family that had very strict boundaries, you might see a very rigid person. Somebody who, you know, maybe they're very precise about the time that they get up or the way that they get dressed in the morning, things like that. So maybe they have boundaries that aren't that flexible. Or maybe your family of origin was somebody where the boundaries weren't that strong. They were very soft. And you might think about the boundary then as being really just not firm enough to hold the space that you need for yourself. So you start with your own history and thinking about how you learn to have boundaries. I mean, some people, it's such an automatic process that we don't realize it. So there's a lot of self-reflection, a lot of thinking about that. Also think about your current situation. What is it that you need? In your caregiving, you know, what do you need to do? Set aside time to rest, time to eat, time to be with family, time to do other things besides caregiving. When people first come into caregiving, there's this tendency to feel like you just need to give all the time. I don't know, is that something you hear a lot from folks that you work with?
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: Absolutely. And so then that ends up making you not really enjoy anything, right? And so then you're not happy. And you're not a good caregiver anymore. And it makes it more of a chore than something that you want to do. And that's, that's a huge difference. So I would say people tend to either be giving too much or they're trying to set boundaries but they just don't know how, right?
Lisa Kendall: Right. Right. And sometimes it means saying no, right? Which can be very hard. But saying no means saying yes to yourself. So it's, it's sometimes people, so another metaphor, but I think about boundaries also as a way of protecting your own energy. Right? So, and also just remember the importance of caring for yourself, right? So there's that whole piece of boundaries being... a form of self-care and a way of protecting your energy. You don't need to give everything all the time, right? And sometimes people think about self-care as like mani-pedis or bubble baths or things like that, which is totally awesome if that's your jam, right? But it's also getting enough sleep, having nutritious food to eat, being able to say no to demands that just aren't going to fit in with your schedule or they're going to demand too much. So being able to say no in a way that's kind and clear and... and say yes to yourself and to the things that are going to fill you up and allow you to keep giving. So, you know, that self-care is so important. And I think that boundaries are a form of self-care. And I always love to give a shout out to our colleague, Jana Moran, because she said this in a workshop one time that, you know, you have to say yes to yourself before you can say yes to other people.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: That's awesome.
Lisa Kendall: And if you say yes to other people too much, you're saying no to yourself. And that's going to deplete you. And as you said, Brandy, it's going to make you tired and worn out and not want to keep doing the work. And then there's that whole piece of resentment that can build up when you feel like, oh, I've just given and given and given. So boundaries are a way of kind of protecting your energy and being able to say yes to yourself and to the people you love. Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: I love that. I love that idea of boundaries as self-care. And I think that's probably one of the most helpful ways to think about them for sure. It makes a lot of sense to me. Um, what, so, you know, when people are in these different stages of life and caregiving can come to you at all different stages of life, I think that's another thing that maybe folks don't always, if you're not a caregiver, don't always think about, but caregiving can happen when you're in your twenties, when you're in your thirties, when you're in your forties, sixties, seventies, doesn't matter. And what kind of boundaries are important or how you set them can maybe look different at different stages of life. What do you, do you have any kind of thoughts or ideas or strategies around that?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, absolutely. It is different. You know, if you think about, um, somebody who is in their twenties and they're balancing caregiving, maybe they're caring for a grandparent, and they also have work and school and a very busy social life, right? Those folks, you know, the demands on their time are, are pretty intense and different from somebody who is perhaps caring for an aging spouse. where their time is, they have a different, sort of a different landscape to deal with, right? So it is different. But the important thing is to think about your own energy and how you want to allocate your time and your energy. So the one thing, and this goes back to your personal history and what you learn about boundaries from your family, is that sometimes people may set boundaries that are really too rigid. Right? So think about somebody who's so intent on keeping their schedule that they can't be flexible with their energy and their time. I think about somebody who is really dedicated to say an exercise routine, right? But it's too rigid. So, you know, I have to be in the gym by 7am and if I'm not there, then, you know, the whole thing is just blown and I'm, you know, everything is going to pot. So that's an example of a really rigid boundary. Lisa Kendall: For caregivers, I think it's really important to, again, pay attention to your energy and how you want to allocate your time. And sometimes that means saying no to things that are maybe considered fun or things that you would ordinarily like to do. Like the example I gave of not answering the phone before 10am. You have to have time to sleep. You have to have time to get yourself in order. And so, thinking about how you allocate your energy and your time is important. And again, making those boundaries flexible enough so that you're not too rigid, right? So, you know, I think that's really important. And for caregivers of all ages, the strategies that you use to set boundaries might be different, but the principle is the same. You have to protect your energy. You have to be able to say yes to yourself before you can say yes to others. And I think that's important. Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: That's a great point. So what, so when people are setting boundaries, you know, you mentioned saying no. And sometimes that can be really hard for folks to say no, especially if you've been raised in an environment where maybe you don't say no a lot or no isn't really a word that gets used. So how can folks maybe practice or start to learn how to say no and still be kind and compassionate and say yes to yourself? How do people kind of do that when they're not used to it?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, it's a great question, right? Because I think that our culture teaches us to say yes to things and to be agreeable and to be nice, right? So I think one of the most powerful tools that people can use to learn how to say no and how to do it in a way that's kind and compassionate and loving is to use the tools of nonviolent communication. Right, which is a wonderful method that was put together by Marshall Rosenberg. And there are people who teach this all over the place, but there are four parts to nonviolent communication. And I know that the first part is to identify what is the need that you have and to be really specific about it, right? So again, self-awareness. And to learn to identify that need and to express it. And when you're expressing your need to do so in a way that is kind and clear. And I think about some caregivers that I've worked with, you know, where they say things like, you know, "I really need some time to myself." So, "I'm going to take a nap now and I'm going to need some time." You know, "Please don't disturb me until 2:00 PM." Or something like that. Right, so saying that need in a kind and clear way. So I think about that first piece of the four parts of nonviolent communication. And that's the one that always jumps out at me. And I'm trying to remember the other three, but you can look up nonviolent communication online and it's there. There's four parts to it and it's really helpful. So the other piece is when you're learning to set boundaries and learning to say no in a way that's kind and clear, is to practice it. So it sounds silly, but you can do it with a partner. You can practice it in a mirror. You know, I really need some time to myself right now. Please don't disturb me for the next 30 minutes. I love you, but I really need this time. And it feels kind of awkward at first, but the more you practice it, the easier it gets. And then when you're in a situation where you really need to use it, it's right there. So I think that that can be really helpful.
Brandy Archie, OTD, OTR/L, CLIPP: And as you're saying that I'm imagining how people are going to react, right? Because you already have in your mind what you need to say and you're ready. And then they're going to react to you with whatever guilt, however they normally react. So what do you say then? What's a way to continue with your boundary after their reaction?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, that's a great point, Brandy, because people will push back, right? And they'll say, oh, but I really need you right now. And I think, you know, being able to say things like, I understand that you need me right now. And, you know, I will be available for you at two o'clock or whatever time you set, right? So you can acknowledge their need. You can say, I understand that you need me, but I also need to take care of myself right now. So I'll be available for you at two o'clock or I'll be available for you in 30 minutes or something like that. So being able to acknowledge their need and also still being clear about your need is really important. And then another piece of this is to be really kind to yourself when you're learning to set these boundaries, right? Because it's not easy. It's not easy to set boundaries when you're used to saying yes to everything, right? So being kind to yourself, giving yourself some grace, right? And saying, it's okay, you know, I'm learning this, I'm getting better at it, and it's okay if I don't do it perfectly every time. But the more you practice, the easier it gets, and the more clear you can be. So I think that's really important.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Lisa, I love that point about practicing and that it's okay if it doesn't go perfectly the first time or the second time or the third time. That's so important. We're not going to get it perfect every time. I think we can all relate to that in some way. I know I can. Um, do you, um, what, what do you think about, um, so when you're learning to set boundaries and you're maybe making mistakes or struggling a little bit, do you have any recommendations for how to kind of reset? Like if you feel like your boundaries have kind of gone off the rails a little bit, how do you get back on track?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, that's a great question, right? Because sometimes, you know, we set a boundary and it doesn't work out or we feel like, you know, we let somebody push through our boundary and, and it just didn't work out. So being able to reflect on that and say, okay, what can I learn from this? You know, what can I do differently next time? How can I set a boundary that is a little more firm or a little more clear? And also being able to just, again, give yourself some grace and say, okay, it didn't work out this time, but I'm going to try again. I'm going to keep practicing. I'm going to keep learning. And also being able to talk to other caregivers, right? To be able to share your experiences and say, you know, I'm really struggling with setting boundaries. How do you do it? What works for you? Because we can learn so much from each other and being able to share our experiences and share our struggles and also share our successes, right? So being able to talk to other caregivers and say, you know, what works for you? How do you set boundaries? And I think that can be really helpful too.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: That's a really great point. And I'm so glad you brought that up because I think sometimes caregivers can feel really isolated and alone in their experiences and feel like they're the only ones going through it. But, you know, connecting with other caregivers and hearing their stories and hearing their struggles and successes can be so empowering and so helpful. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Um, do you have any, any last thoughts or tips for caregivers who are maybe just starting to think about boundaries or starting to practice setting boundaries? Any, any last words of wisdom for them?
Lisa Kendall: Yeah, I would just say, you know, be kind to yourself, give yourself some grace and know that it's a process. It's not something that happens overnight. It's something that you can practice and get better at. And also just remember that setting boundaries is a form of self-care. It's a way of protecting your energy and your time so that you can continue to give to the people that you love and care for. And also being able to say yes to yourself and say yes to your needs. And that's really important. So just, you know, be kind to yourself, give yourself some grace and keep practicing.
Emilia Bourland, OTR, ECHM, CFPS: Thank you so much, Lisa, for joining us today and sharing your wisdom and insights on boundaries and caregiving. It's been such a pleasure to have you with us. And thank you, Brandy, for being here as well. It's always great to have these conversations with you. And thank you to all of our listeners for joining us today. We hope you found this episode helpful and informative. And we look forward to seeing you next time on Care Lab.
Closing Summary
Thank you for tuning into this episode of CareLab, where we discussed the crucial topic of setting boundaries in caregiving with Lisa Kendall:. We hope you found the conversation insightful and useful. For more episodes packed with valuable advice and expert insights, don't forget to subscribe to CareLab podcast on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share it with others who might benefit from it. Until next time, take care and be kind to yourself!
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